Let us continue...
Here is an easy example to understand the justice and righteousness of God.
Suppose a thief stole a billon dollars from a bank, spent all of them, and later was caught. Is it just and right for the judge to release the thief if he confesses his crime with sincere remorse? No, then the justice would not be exercised the way it should be. The appropriate consequence for his sin must be paid by the thief or somebody else, and that is the justice everybody agrees.
Are you trying to compare the modern justice system to your Christian view point @ truthfind123? Well…if I will apply modern penology to that, we will not need Jesus. You see, we reform wrong doers, we don’t kill them. Criminals are brought to jail to be reformed and re-introduced to society. Punishment is not about death, it’s about being re-educated…Maybe you think that retribution is the same as justice.
The animal sacrifice devised by God reveals the characters of God, both his righteousness (The consequence of our sins must be paid) and his love (The consequence of our sins is paid by animals instead of us who committed the sins). In spite of God’s continuous forgiveness of their sins through the animal sacrifice, God’s people (Israel) again returned to the sin and rebellion after a short moment of remorse, revealing the persistent nature of sin in human beings. Temporarily restored relationship through the animal sacrifice lead again to their separation from the love of God. After the great fall human beings could not get out of the bondage of sins on their own in spite of their desire and effort.
Unconditional love, animal sacrifice? I don't get it.
Now why does a loving god, that is suppose to have an unconditional love with us, still has a need of animal sacrifice? Is God being appleased by butchering and mutilation? Where is the rightheousness and justice in forgiving someone's fault by slitting the neck of a defenseless lamb?
Animal sacrifice is just one of those ugly practices in ancient Palestine. Ancient men believed that the blood of an innocent, clean animal (without blemished) will somehow appeased their gods.
Despite the original intention of God (“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible”: Matthew 19:26), the people of Israel continued trying to keep all the rules and rituals on their own in order to prove their righteousness before God. As I mentioned before, the old testament is a shadow of what would be fulfilled in the future by the Messiah for the whole human beings. If you have read the Bible, you may remember that there were numerous prophesies about the coming Messiah (Jesus Christ). Because some of them are so obvious even to Jews who still deny Jesus is the Messiah, they just skip reading those sections of the old testament such as Isaiah 53. Eventually the (incomplete) animal sacrifice in the old testament was replaced by the sacrificial death of Jesus to pay the penalty of all our sins once and for all. When we accept Jesus Christ into our hearts as our Savior and Lord, we are completely liberated from the bondage of sin once and for all by the help of God (not on our own). “Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free (John 8:32)”.
That concept is only applicable with Christians @ truthfind123. Since I already left Christianity, I think the belief of a self-sacrificing god is already out of my system.
Anyway, when Christians compiled the Bible, they included the Jewish Tanack in that book and called it “The Old Testament”, but that’s it…they just added it. You see @ truthfind123. The Tanack is not really a part of your religion. You see the Jewish concept of a messiah is very different from the Christian model. Jews are not waiting for a second coming of the ‘God-Man’. For the Jews, the Messiah doesn’t necessary need to be a son of any God - he is as human as everyone else. Also, it’s not the job of the Jewish messiah to save man from sin. He will come to gather all the Jews back to Israel, built the third temple in Jerusalem, restore the Throne of David and the Kingdom of God in Israel and finally will unite all people of this world.
Now what prophecies are you talking about @ truthfind123…ah Isaiah 53? Isaiah 53 refers to Israel. In Rabbinical interpretation the ‘suffering servant’ is the Nation of Israel. If we read the passages carefully…well Jesus will not fit the bill. The truth is, the Tanack does not have any prophecies concerning Jesus Christ. It is only Christians who interpret some passages in the Old Testament and say there are such ‘prophecies’.
There are two important features in our salvation from sin. First, it is a gift of God for all human beings. “But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Romans 5:8)”. Our God of love and compassion is just like a loving mother jumps into the water to save her drowning child regardless of the fact that the child is obedient or disobedient to her. Her loving heart for the child is far from the petty conditional love (If you will obey me, then I will save and love you. Otherwise I will not save you). This unconditional love is possible because she shed her own blood with pain when delivering the child. The love of a mother for her child is just a shadow of the love of God for all human beings.
Now whose fault was it @ truthfind123? It is not Adam or Eve’s fault since they were innocent.
Let us use your own analogy…If a mother already knows that her children will drown on a certain place, will she still bring her children to that place? Of course, not…Now…will a loving mother leave a poison inside her children’s playpen?
Again, who has the ability to stop evil before it entered the garden? Who has the omniscient and omnipotent powers to stop evil in its tracks? Adam? Jesus? Superman?
Nope…why it is your God @ truthfind123.
Therefore, what will happen if God…with all those omni abilities - prevented Satan from going inside the garden? There will not be any “Fall of Man”. However, what did he do to prevent it from happening? Now you’re telling me that we need to believe that his son was sacrificed to be save on something that he failed to accomplished 6,000 years ago? Give me a break! Is this the kind of loving relationship this god has to over? What I am, chopped liver?
A mother's love doesn't end on being unconditional @ truthfind123, there must be also responsibility to it.
Second, it is obtained by faith, not by works. “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith – and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God – not by works, so that no one can boast (Ephesians 2:8-9)”. Our salvation from sin is so precious that even selling all our possessions to give them to the poor would not be enough to earn it, although this is a good thing to do. This is what the people of Israel had done to earn righteousness by trying to literally and legalistically observe all the rules and rituals to be perfect before God. It is impossible to attain the high standard of righteousness by our own works (Matthew 19:26) so God provided for us another way of salvation, salvation by faith in Jesus Christ who fulfilled the whole righteousness on our behalf. Because salvation comes from faith in Jesus Christ who died to pay the penalty of our sins in our place, we are 100% sure of our eternity in heaven, free from the fear of our uncertain eternal future. This may not be the way you expected from your common sense (by speculation), but this is the way according to the revelation of God. “There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death (Proverbs 16:25)”. Then you may ask what is the point for good works. We do good works out of thanks for the grace we have received from our God, namely, the gift of the fulfilled life here and the eternal life in heaven which we do not deserve. Now you can see the difference. We do good works out of thanks to God, but not to compensate for our sins in order to earn salvation.
Are you trying to sell Martin Luther’s doctrine @ truthfind123? Gosh…is your article is but a marketing strategy?
Anyway, if you read the Bible your ‘salvation by faith’ will be gainsaid by no other than Jesus Christ himself. Remember that story…when a rich young man asked Jesus how to have eternal life, Jesus didn’t say to have faith but, “You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, do not defraud, honor your father and mother… Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." (Mark 10:19, 21). In addition, James said in his letter…that faith without work is dead (James 3:26) So who’s telling the truth?
Therefore, you see @ truthfind123, your salvation is loosely base on how you and your denomination interpret an ancient document. It is not a revelation from a god.
Have you ever experienced the joy of freedom from the bondage of sin with the help of the words of God? I will give you just three examples. First, on one occasion I arrived at a free pornographic site while surfing on the internet. Seeing a few dozens of free pornographic images was very enticing because it was free and nobody was watching me. There was nothing to lose. Seeing them or not was just my finger tip away. Then I was reminded of two verses in Psalm (119:9,11). “How can a young man keep his way pure? By living according to your word. I have hidden your word in my heart that I might not sin against you”. With the words of God I resisted the temptation successfully. What a joy of freedom from the bondage of my sinful desires of self-indulgent lust! The joy and freedom was hundred times greater than my temporary pleasure of seeing the images. Have you ever experienced this kind of joy and freedom? If not, you are missing your full potential as a true “free” human being. Second, on another occasion on the way to my work I passed a beggar asking for money. Although I already passed him a while ago, God’s words kept telling me inside my heart “When Jesus saw the crowds, he had compassion on them, because they were harassed and helpless, like sheep without a shepherd (Matthew 9:36)”. I could not resist God’s words asking me for compassion on the beggar I had passed. I had nothing but to return to the station where the beggar worked and give him a few dollars together with handshakes. What a joy of freedom from the bondage of my sinful desires of selfishness! Third, yet on another occasion one of my colleagues started to spew several insulting remarks on me during the lunch time. Considering the circumstance and context, it was obvious that they were intentionally directed toward me. I was tempted to get revenge on him by finding faulting with his weaknesses which could be as humiliating to him as possible. Then I was reminded of the words of Jesus “If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also (Matthew 5:39); Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you (Matthew 5:44)” What a joy of freedom from the bondage of my sinful desires of hatred and getting even!
That’s the difference between us @ truthfind123, you do good because a certain ‘holy scripture’ told you while I do good because it is the right thing to do. Now, I refrain myself to pornography because of my high respect to women…that is my reason… PERIOD!
Now since you said you get your high standard of morality because of the Bible…hmmm…let see…tell me what the following verses reminds you @ truthfind123.
Genesis 19: 5-8
They called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them."
Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him 7 and said, "No, my friends. Don't do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don't do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof."
Numbers 31:17-18
Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.
Do these verses also suggest purity in heart? Reading those passages, I think it is better to look at the pages of FHM while wanking myself silly that to hand over my lovely daughters to be rape by an unruly mob.
What is that bragging on giving a dollar to a beggar? Tell me what you brag about and I'll tell you what you lack. Anyway, do you know that if you give a beggar a fish, he will just eat for a day, but if you teach him how to fish and he will eat for a lifetime.
Speaking of Jesus, do you know that this...eh...verses…Matthew 5:44 and Matthew 5:39 can also be seen in other sages and philosophers. By the way, with such love and forgiveness isn’t it odd for this Jesus character to cursed an innocent fig tree for not having fruits (Mark 11:12-14, 20-21), by killing innocent pigs and destroying a man’s livelihood (Luke 8:28-33), calling a Gentile woman a dog (Matt.15:22-28) and scorching legitimate entrepreneurs (Mark 11:15) – Yep! Hitler loves this one. It seems to me that this Jesus fellow always contradicts what he teach.
Overwhelmed by the mighty love and grace of God, I am 100% satisfied with and thankful for everything, absolutely everything. I even thank God for the cancer I struggled with recently. Because of the disease, I learned to love and trust my God more, learned to be more thankful for everything, learned to have more compassion for other people, learned to resist better the temptation of lust and selfishness! Overwhelmed by the unconditional love of God, my joy, thanks and freedom have exploded like a volcano everyday. Why do I leave Christianity? Why do I abandon my God who has made me what a true human being is meant to be? If some of you may argue that all my wonderful experiences are just from wishful thinking and self-motivation, you are free to think whatever you want. As many of you wish I leave Christianity to atheism, I wish you return to the love of God again. We live in a free and democratic society. Although you have left God due to some unpleasant reasons, you can come back to him anytime. Nobody in your current community should not criticize or condemn your decision to return to the love of God again. God always loves you no matter who you are now or no matter what you have done, just like a loving mother who does not hesitate to jump into the water to save her drowning children.
Some of you might have left Christianity because some Christians are hypocrite, selfish, arrogant and ungraceful. You became a Christian because of the love of Jesus Christ for you, not because of good behaviors of other Christians. Please do not be distracted by the behaviors of other believers although it may not be so easy to you. I do admit that our spiritual forefathers did many cruel things to humanity in the name of God through such as the Crusades and the Inquisition, indicating the danger of institutionalized beliefs. They were in stark contrast to the unconditional love of Jesus for all human beings. On behalf of our spiritual forefathers I sincerely apologize to all humanity. Many of you including even some Christians might suffer from negative psychology. Students study hard to learn new things, not for fear of dropping out of the school. We eat food to stay health, not for fear of starving to death. We do some Christian activities (worship, fellowship, prayer and Bible study) to enjoy here and for eternity what our God of love is offering us (joy, thanks, freedom and so on). We do not and should not do them for fear of something. Some Christian leaders may use the fear of hell or punishment to get their messages across to others more effectively, but this is not a healthy approach and is absolutely wrong! Fear is the opposite of love which is all about the whole message of Christianity. “There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment (1 John 4:18)”. If you feel hurt or offended by them, I am sorry and truly apologize you on their behalf. Many of you may see the salvation with the eyes of negative psychology. Because we all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23), the entire human beings were doomed to the eternal separation from God and that was our destiny in the first place. But through our faith in Jesus Christ we were rescued by God from the eternal condemnation. On the other hand, the negative psychology says that we were doomed to the eternal separation because of not believing in Jesus. Now you can see the difference. The eternal condemnation was caused by our sinful nature, not by our rejection of Jesus as the Savior and Lord.
So why will I pray to a god who created cancer in the first place? Now, not all who has cancer can relate on your testimony @ truthfind123. You see, what happened to Steve did not happen to Jack. Try giving cancer to a father whose daily wage is enough to feed his family of five. What about a single mother of two children whose only means of livelihood is washing clothes? Will she be as happy as you if she will have cancer? So, what is the point of your cancer testimony? Always remember, your testimony is different from my testimony @ truthfind123
Ok I get the picture; you want me to return to Christianity @ truthfind123. What for? To justify your straw men? Let me clarify my points…it seems to me that you are just placing words in my mouth. I become a Christian because of tradition. I was just a toddler when they baptized me as a Christian…I have no free will! I left Christianity not because of some Christian issues, sickness or unanswered prayers…that’s cheap! I left it because of Christianity itself. Your doctrines create what you are @ truthfind123. Christianity may teach us love, forgiveness and compassion but there is always an evil face behind the mask. It also fosters division, racism, sexism, cruelty, war, and hate. That is why we have things like the Inquisition, burning of heretics and the condemnation of knowledge and science. Your history book is your reference.
Christianity also teaches us to lie and to have fellow men because of differences in religious belief. It also degrades women for blaming them as the cause of sin (remember the Eve story @ truthfind123). It uplifts ignorance in the disguised as faith. It is not even about being free…it distorts the real meaning of freedom.
It is but vulgar ignorance and the belief of things that are impossible. It degrades us humans an also give us a permanent state of guilt. As Percy Bysshe Shelly (1792-1822) wrote, “Christianity peoples earth with demons, hell with men and heaven with slaves.”
Now what makes a person truly human? That’s easy…and you won’t have a hard time looking for the answer @ truthfind123. Now here’s a clue, you won’t find the answer in the Bible. It is in our basic human rights - our natural, constitutional and statutory rights. This includes (1) our rights to life, liberty and property fully protected by law, (2) our rights to be secure, (3) our right of privacy, (4) our freedom of speech and to express our ideas and grievances, (5) our right to information and (6) our freedom to believe or to have lack of belief. I bet your God does not even know or understand these basic human rights @ truthfind123.
Without these rights, man will never enjoy his full potential as a free human being.
So do not apologized @ truthfind123, you are just a victim of that religion and you will not be able to pay all the damages and atrocities Christianity did to humanity.
Hell…your metaphysical prison. Well what can I say? Despots need a dark dungeon. Before Christians try sending us non-believers to hell, I think your God will fit that place perfectly @ truthfind123. Yep…your God @ truthfind123, the creator of evil (Isaiah 45:7) and the source of evil spirits (1 Samuel 16:14). As Clark Pinnock once said, “the idea that a fully conscious creature would undergo physical and mental torture through endless time is plainly sadistic and therefore incompatible with a God who loves humanity…In terms of justice, the traditional view of hell is simply unacceptable. It is a punishment in excess of anything that sinners deserve…beside, no purpose is serve by the unending torture of the wicked except vengeance.” Nothing is clearer than that. When people worship evil they themselves become evil.
Sin? What sin? Well sorry for busting your doughnut @ truthfind123, atheists like me do not sin. You have to be a believer to sin.
No hell, no sin, no eternal damnation. So what is left in your comment @ truthfind123? Sartre once said, hell is other people…but I think in this scenario, it will be more appropriate to say, “Hell is Christian evangelists.”
If you have left Christianity due to some unpleasant reasons, I kindly ask you to come close to God to enjoy his unconditional love and grace. If you do not come close to your Creator, you could end up being the older son in the parable of the prodigal son in Luke 15:11-32, who kept grumbling and complaining due to some petty reasons without enjoying the true love of God.
I left Christianity not because of your petty reasons @ truthfind123 but because I found out it is just a vessel to hurt and accused people using a doctrine of endless guilt. In addition, it is also a doctrine that promotes superstition and the fear of knowledge so people will remain ignorant. It fosters intolerance and division. It is against reason, women and indigenous people. These are not just petty reasons @ truthfind123 and after I have read your ‘comment’…well it still fell short in answering these issues.
About a few years ago I was going through difficult times and about to leave Christianity because God did not answer my earnest prayer for more than 10 years. My anger and bitterness kept building up to the point that I shouted to my God, “You are only interested in bringing me into your family. After then you do not take care of me any more!”, “In contrast to your promise that suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character; character, hope (Romans 5:3-4), I am getting more angry, disappointed and sour toward you instead of getting closer to you as a result of the current trial!”, “Those who are far less qualified than me get a better job and faster promotion. Surely this world is not fair!”. Although I went to the church every Sunday and read the Bible regularly, I did not really come close to God in order to know and meet him personally. I myself was the older son in the parable of the prodigal son. I kindly ask you to come close to God to know and experience how good and gracious our God is.
Ah, so now I know who’s disgruntled between us @ truthfind123. That means you did not…not once been an atheist. You are just an angry Christian. No wonder you cannot relate to my post.
Your prayers were not answered, right? So you’re upset with Christianity…you’re having a rough time with your work, your promotions, right?
That’s so easy – find a better god or goddess that can do the job right.
I admit that I still do not understand several things about God and the Bible such as the literal interpretation of the first few chapters in Genesis and some bloody scenes in the old testament. How can I, a tiny creature, understand every detail of what the Creator of the universe has been doing? God has no obligation to tell his creature every detail of his world. God is not my personal Genie. Of course we should avoid this kind of attitude: “Because A said B, B must be the absolute truth. Period. Do not ask any question”.
It seems strange that a tiny creature like me can piss off an omni God huh? An insignificant, finite creature like moi giving God an eternal headache.
Anyway…since you admitted that you still do not understand several things about God and the Bible…well maybe that’s the reason why you still cling to that Christianity like a monkey in a tree.
Hmmmmm something is just bugging me. Remember that you told me that this god of yours would like to make a loving relationship with me. Now you’re telling me that this god has no obligation to tell. That’s not how relationship works @ truthfind123 Relationship is a two-way street. I have the obligation to love him and he has the obligation to tell me his side of the story. Only despots and tyrants avoid answering questions. If this will be the case, then I have to place God together in a line-up with Adolf Hitler, Pol-Pot, Idi Amin, Ferdinand Marcos and Saddam Hussein.
Let see, because A said B, B must be the absolute truth? Weh?
Are you really a theoretical physicist @ truthfind123? OK, because truthfind said he’s a theoretical physicist, then that is an absolute truth. However, what if truthfind123 is lying? What if A statement is a lie?
By the way, have you ever heard about the cosmological constant problem in physics and astronomy? According to the most recent observation of the universe, the expansion of the universe is accelerating contrary to our perception. The universe does not show any sign of slowing down of expansion, but instead expands indefinitely. To be consistent with this observation, the Einstein’s field equation should include the cosmological constant of the order of 10^(-120) in reduced Planck unit. However, the calculated value with the best theory available now is of order of unity in the same unit, in other words, 10^(120) larger than the observed value! This is the greatest disaster in the history of physics which has been known and praised as accurate science. As a former theoretical physicist, I do not want to easily give up the best theories physicist have developed so far. I believe that there would be still some things we do not understand, with a hope that someday we may be able to put all pieces together to get the complete picture.
Woah! What does this have to do with God, Jesus and Christianity? WTF!
Might as well answer this to...Who said scientific claims are that “accurate”. Gosh I’m really having some doubt on your “theoretical physicist” claim @ truthfind123.
Truth in science is provisional. When a new evidence id presented, scientists abandons, discard or replace out dated hypothesis or theories, even if how ‘dear’ this theory may be. Science always welcomes change.
Now just like any other fields of natural science, physics is a experimental science (not accurate) and no theory in physics is regarded as an ultimate truth. There is always new observations that will revised or even discard a theory in physics. Speaking of accuracy in physics, we use accuracy in terms of reliable measurements, something that do not change and can be duplicated by other observers. So accuracy in physics stays on the issue of measurements.
By the way, that issue about “the expansion of the universe is accelerating contrary to our perception” is not new.
If you have left Christianity for similar reasons with some unanswered questions, I kindly advise you to exercise more patience instead of giving it up easily. In spite of our efforts to know all the answers, there could be still some unanswered questions about God and the Bible. How can mere creatures demand the Creator to explain every detail of his world? How can we declare there is no God, simply because we do not have a full understanding of his world? How can an ant claim that there is no internet, simply because it does not make sense to him or it is not logical to him? Let us not jump to a conclusion in haste!
In summary, Christianity is not about keeping man-made rules, rituals and traditions out of duty or out of fear of punishment. Christianity is also not about seeking peace, comfort and happiness through wishful thinking. Christianity is all about a loving relationship with the Creator of the universe and our very souls, experiencing explosive joy, thanks and freedom here and for eternity.
As I have already said, we only make loving relationship with existing beings…so the real relationship is between society and the church. Therefore, I forged my relationship with other people or group of people…like the church, the church…with all its intolerance, racism, bigotry and hate. Nah…I don’t want to return to a relationship that gives me negative vibes.
Freedom? Freedom from what? Anything that cultivates guilt is not about freedom. No one that is being required to give absolute obedience is free. I live in a democratic state and thank Darwin for that…and I understand the meaning of freedom, respect and love from secular laws and philosophies. The Bible is not about freedom and love…it is about guilt, total obedience, ignorance and subjugation…Nah! If you want your Christianity then keep it to yourself @ truthfind123. I’ve just been liberated from that poke and I just don’t want to lose my real freedom again.